Bey Logan Interview for Martial Arts Illustrated
Bey Logan meets the world’s greatest martial arts action movie director.
When Francois Truffaut met his hero, Alfred Hitchcock, for an exclusive interview, the result was a five-hundred and seventy-three page volume, simply entitled, ’Hitchcock by Truffaut: the definitive study’. Sadly, both men have since passed away, and one can only pray that there is a suitably equipped editing suite in heaven to make eternity bearable for them both. Still very much alive are myself and my own idol, Chinese actor, martial artist and film director Samo Hung, and, as I made my way to the offices of the maestro’s new BoJon film company, I felt a real kinship with Truffaut, who had expended so much effort to immortalise the recollections and ideas of his mentor.
Sadly, I cannot afford to spend five-hundred and seventy-three pages talking to or about Samo. It’s a shame, because he has made many more films than Hitchcock, and I firmly believe that he is, at his best, on a par with the ’Master of Suspense’, but in his own unique field of action cinema. When dealing with a man who began his career in the waning days of the Peking Opera, who went on to action direct and co-star with virtually every star in the Hong Kong firmament and who is now a legend in the Chinese film world with an international reputation, it would be ridiculous to indicate that a magazine interview answers every question and covers every topic. However, whatever its deficiencies, it remains Hung’s first major English language interview, and, as such, I hope it will expose the man and his work to an even wider audience than they previously enjoyed.
Though Samo now speaks more than passable English, he insisted that I bring an interpreter to the interview, so that he could explain himself more fully, in Cantonese, when necessary. My companion and I arrived at one of the offices owned by BoJon to find the great man editing a sneak trailer for his (then) latest movie, ’Pantyhose Hero’, which stars himself and Hong Kong singing star Alan Tam, and which is almost certain to be retitled for western release! Though he would clearly have remained happier hunched over a tiny screen in the editing suite, Samo greeted us warmly, and escorted us to another office. Though initially rather reticent, Samo soon warmed to our discussion, especially when he found out that I already had a good knowledge of his films and that the focus of the interveiw was to be his work, rather than his private life, or brief encounter with Bruce Lee. For all the Samo fans who have begged me to write an article like this one, here it is at last…
Bey Logan: Dai gor dai (big brother), I think that a lot of people who have seen your films have admired your work while knowing very little about your background, in terms of your career and your early life. Can you fill us in on some of your biographical details?
Samo Hung: Certainly. In my early years, I trained at the Peking Opera school here in Hong Kong. We used to start at six or seven in the morning and finish at eleven at night. We’d rest for lunch, we’d have a shower and supper in the evening, and then we’d study the literature of the Opera. It was very hard physical and mental study.
Bey Logan: This lifestyle was depicted brilliantly in the film ’Painted Faces’, in which you starred. I wonder if you can take us further back, and tell me about your family and your very early life?
Samo Hung: Naturally, I lived with my parents when I was very young, but both of them went out to work and I stayed with my grandparents. I didn’t like school, so I was always playing tricks and not concentrating. Because my whole family worked, there was really no-one to look after me. Finally, a friend of the family approached my parents and said, „Why don’t you enrol Samo in the Peking Opera school?”, and that’s how I got started.
Bey Logan: Is ’Painted Faces’ a really accurate portrait of life in the Opera school? Is your Sifu there just the way you portray him?
Samo Hung: As you see in ’Painted Faces’, my Sifu was very strict. The only time I wasn’t scared of him was when I was asleep and dreaming! Most of the time I was really cautios and paid a lot of attention. If you want to see what that time was like, then, yes, see ’Painted Faces’, because that’s pretty much how it was.
Bey Logan: In the film, your portrayal of Sifu Yu is a very affectionate one. The audience like the character. I imagine he was a bit tougher in reality than he seemed in the film.
Samo Hung: (Laughing) Yes, actually my Sifu was much tougher, but I couldn’t make him look too tough in the film, otherwise he might come back to Hong Kong and beat me up!
Bey Logan: The period depicted in ’Painted Faces’ is the end of an era. Opera was dying in Hong Kong, and the film industry was just beginning to pick up speed. How did you begin your career in the movies?
Samo Hung: I was young, about fifteen, when I had my first chance to be a stuntman in the movies. That was my job after leaving Opera school, and I’ve now been in the industry over thirty years. I spent about four years as a stuntman before becoming an action director, then three years more before I had the chance to make my own movies.
Bey Logan: This is almost a rude question, but a lot of people have asked me how you got that distinctive scar on your lip, because it’s evident from your very early films. Were you injured doing a stunt?
Samo Hung: No, it was in a fight. Someone cut me with the end of a Coca-Cola buttle. If you look, you see it is the same size as the neck of a Coke bottle. It cut my mouth open and also my nose. My trademark!
Bey Logan: Looking at the Golden Harvest kung fu movies, I’ve noticed a change between the pre-Samo Hung period, where it was mainly arms and legs going like windmills until someone fell down, to the post-Samo Hung period, where we had these precise martial arts techniques, acrobatics and the use of close-ups and slow motion. How did your style of filming martial arts action develop?
Samo Hung: It’s a combination of my knowledge of the martial arts, my understanding and my curiosity with regard to making action movies and my ability to look at it from the audience viewpoint. How will the audience feel when they watch the scene? That’s what inspires me. I spend a lot of time examining different film angles, and working ont he editing.
Bey Logan: Your skill with camera angles and cutting is visible in virtually all your films, but I think the readers would be interested to learn which martial arts styles you yourself have trained in.
Samo Hung: The first style I have learned is at the Peking Opera school, and is called Bak Pei. I never even saw any of the other styles at that time! Then, when I left the school and worked in the movies, I saw Lam Kuen, Pak Mei, Hung Kuen and so on, and so I wanted to learn them. However, at that time I couldn’t find a master to teach me, so I read books and learned from them. Afterwards, I trained in karate, and later when making a film, I went to Korea for the first time. There I trained in Hapkido, and liked it very much. When I came back, I started to train in Wing Chun.
Bey Logan: There seem to be certain themes that run through your serious films. You often detail the corelation between tradition and the need for change, both in the martial arts and in society in general. Your films all revolve around positive aspects of the human condition, such as courage, friendship, loyalty. What do you see as being the ongoing themes in your work, and can you describe your scriptwriting process for us?
Samo Hung: The starting point of every film is, for me, „What is the message you want to put across?” I work with a group of scriptwriters, and we exchange ideas. On every film, we discuss it for three or four months before we get a script. As well as the ideas, I look at the selling point of the film in the market place. Finally, one writer goes and writes the script. However, they just write the story. As far as the action part goes, they don’t understand what happens. I control that myself. I know how the fighting for the scene will go. When the scriptwriter gets to the point where they fight, he just writes „Fight!” (laughter). Then I talk to my action director and I say, „I want the fighting style like this. Any idea? Show me”. Then I say „Good” or „No good”. As for ongoing themes, maybe it’s up to you, and the other viewers, to tell me what impressions they get from my films…
Bey Logan: Strangely enough, the film of yours of which I’m most fond is also the one on the set of which I first met you „Prodigal Son”. This film has become a cult classic, especially in Wing Chun circles. What I found remarkable was the performance of Lam Ching Ying, who had been pretty much and extra or a bit part actor before that film, and yet someone who gives a lifetime-best performance as the Wing Chun master. How did you select him for the role, and how did you know he’d be so good?
Samo Hung: Casting that role was a real headache for me. I looked for a long time. Then I thought of Lam Ching Ying, who I had known for more than ten years. He was always so quiet, but, I thought, „Maybe…” So I said to him, „You can play this part!” and Lam Ching Ying said, „No, I can’t!” Then I tell him how to do it. I show him that he will not have to do too much acting in the film, because he was playing the Sifu character, I put a lot of my own teacher’s character into the character played by Lam Ching Ying – so cold and calm. Then Lam Ching Ying siad, „Okay”.
Bey Logan: His relationship with his student, played by Yuen Biao, is one of the best things in the film. „Prodigal Son” was one half of your Wing Chun double bill, and the remarkable „Warriors Two”, made before it, was the other. What was it about the history of Wing Chun that you found so fascinating?
Samo Hung: I was interested in the stories of Leung Yee Tai and Leung Jian, and in the career of Leung Jian as an adult, with his own students. Even though „Warriors Two” was made first, actually it takes place after „Prodigal Son”. I read the story of Wing Chun in a book, and I liked it. I was particularly fascinated by the relationship between Leung Yee Tai and Leung Jian, which is almost like father and son. The first film was action-action-action. In „Prodigal Son”, I had more confidence, and I wanted to make a film about people, as well as kung fu. Wing Chun history gave me that opportunity.
Bey Logan: The style also fitted in perfectly with the character of Leung Yee Tai, as played by Lam Ching Ying. The most famous practitioner of Wing Chun was undoubtedly Bruce Lee. I’ll bet you’re fed up with talking about him…
Samo Hung: Not at all!
Bey Logan: How did you meet him, and how did you come to fight him at the start of „Enter the Dragon”?
Samo Hung: I first met Bruce Lee in the Golden Harvest film studios. He was making a film called „Game of Death”, and he invited me to be in it. I said, „No problem!” However, later I didn’t have time to shoot with him because I had gone to Korea to make some other movies. Bruce was very angry. Later, he called me a couple of times, asking me to film with him, and finally, I flew back from Thailand to appear in „Enter the Dragon” and we got the chance to talk face to face. He told me he was very angry because he had asked me to be in „Game of Death”, but I had gone to Korea. I said, „I”m very sorry. You never told me when you are shooting. I can’t stay at home and wait for that project! I took the other films, and then I couldn’t leave them because I was shooting in Korea. I’m sorry you are angry, but it wasn’t my fault.” Then he calmed down, and said, „Samo, you’re very nice!”, and I replied, „I didn’t like you very much before. I know film is very successful and I don’t mind, you do your job and I’ll do mine. Now, I find that you are a nice man as well!” So we made up, and later I shot two days on „Enter the Dragon”, and then went back to Bangkok. After a couple of months, I came back to work in Hong Kong, and every day Bruce came to the studio and we talked and had some fun. I liked him very much!
Bey Logan: You’ve sence become an expert on recreating Bruce Lee for the screen. You did the fights for the finished version of „Game of Death”, and you’ve done your own extraordinary Bruce Lee impersonation in several movies…
Samo Hung: That’s right. After Bruce Lee died, a friend of mine asked me what kind of movie I wanted to make, and I said, „Let’s make ’Enter the Fat Dragon’”. I look just a little bit like Bruce Lee, and I thought we could do it for humour, nothing serious. It’s a comedy…
Bey Logan: You’ve recently returned to that character for ’Skinny Tiger, Fatty Dragon’.
Samo Hung: Yes. After I made the first film, a lot of people came to me and said, „Come on, let’s do a sequel!”, and I said, „N. For one joke it’s okay, but not for a series”. Now, it’s been ten years since ’Enter the Fat Dragon’, and Mak Gar (Producer) said, „I have a project for you, in which you imitate Bruce Lee”. I said, „No, I can’t do it. It’s been too long.” At the time of the first movie, I’d seen all the Bruce Lee movies over and over, but I felt that, after ten years, I couldn’t do it. Mak Gar then said, „It doesn’t matter, try! You can do it!”. He kept on going on and on, so in the end I said, „Okay, okay, I’ll do it!”. Actually, in this film, I don’t always play Bruce Lee. In ’Enter the Fat Dragon’, everything was like Bruce Lee. In this film, only the fighting looks like Bruce Lee, so it’s a bit different.
Bey Logan: Just for the record, if you had been in ’Game of Death’, which part would you have played?
Samo Hung: At the end, I would have been one of the people Bruce Lee fought on his way up the pagoda. I forget which floor I would have bee non.
Bey Logan: A classic fight lost to history! Of that extraordinary class at the Peking Opera school, containing yourself, Jackie Chan, Yuen Biao, Yuen Kuei, Yuen Wah and many others, you were the first to become famous, both as a director and as a performer. Since then, your relationship with your old classmate Jackie Chan has been a rather complicated one, I think. Can you tell us how you feel towards him, and working with him?
Samo Hung: With Jackie, my relationship is very hard to put into words. When we were young, we ate together, slept together, showered together… every second of the day we were together! The relationship between me, Jackie Chan and Yuen Biao is very deep. People always tell me, „Oh, we have a relationship like that”. But, no, we are more than just friends. We are like brothers. I’m his bigger brother, both int he school and afterwards. When we work together, I tell him what to do and he must do it like that. Sometimes, when he has dangerous stunts to do, he’s scared and he doesn’t have confidence. He calls me and says, „Big brother, give me power”, and I say, „Okay” and I come to the studio. I’m there going, „Come on, Jackie. Come on, this is your life, you can do it, come on!” Then ’Raarrgh!’, he does it! The bond between us is so deep, so meaningful, I don’t think outsiders can understand it. Within our relationship, there’s no commitment like „I did his film, he has to doo mine”. We’re all free agents. However, when Jackie or Yuen Biao need support, then I’ll go straight away to help them out. It’s a very special relationship.
Bey Logan: I think that Jackie hardly every as good in his own film sas you make him look when he works on yours. If you watch him fight int he ’Lucky Stars’ series, in the three-handers with yourself, Jackie and Yuen Biao and in ’First Mission’, you see him as a real fighting star, whereas in his own movies he tends to concentrate on comedy and stunts more. Would you agree with this?
Samo Hung: The difference between me and Jackie is that, when he makes his own films, Jackie doesn’t care about the other actors. He only cares about himself, and he has to be like that because he’s an actor, he’s the star. My interest is in being a director. I must care about the whole movie. I must take care with all the characters and all the actors. When Jackie, Yuen Biao and I work together, I always make them look good, and just do a little bit myself, because I’m interested in making other people look good.
Bey Logan: You’ve definitely been a star-maker, and I’d say that your films are, as films, stronger than Jackie’s because of that approach. For me, your masterpiece was 'Prodigal Son', but, in America it’s seen as being 'Eastern Condors', a film that’s elicited rave reviews from various newspapers and magazines, and from such film-makers as Oliver Stone, Ed Pressman and S. C. Dacy. Amazingly, that film wasn’t a hit int he Far East. Why do you think this is?
Samo Hung: It’s quite hard to explain. In the Far East, the main markets are Hong Kong and Taiwan, and, in those countries, people never think about war, about what war really is. In America, there are many people who remember being at war. They remember Vietnam. They know what kind of things can happen. In Hong Kong, when we show myself and Yuen Biao and all the others going to war in 'Eastern Condors', they don’t really believe in it. This attitude is the same all over Asia, which is why I think the film didn’t have a good response.
Bey Logan: Another reason might be that, in some territories, people were too close to war, and so they prefer to watch comedies. It’s a shame, though. Also in 'Eastern Condors' was Dr. Haing S. Ngor, who had won an Oscar for his role as Dith Pran in 'The Killing Fields'. How did you get him to appear in your film?
Samo Hung: I wanted to use someone who was already related to war in people’s minds. Haing S. Ngor not only made the film 'The Killing Fields', but he lived through the early years of Pol Pot’s Cambodian regime himself. I thought of him and asked him to be in the film, and he said yes. It’s as simple as that!
Bey Logan: We talked about 'Prodigal Son' completely revitalising the career of Lam Ching Ying. You also brought your old classmate Yuen Wah back into the limelight in a big way when you used him as the main villain at the end of 'Eastern Condors'. How did you develop his character, who you brought back for 'Dragons Forever', and what made you cast Yuen Wah?
Samo Hung: The first thing I do is think, „Okay, I want Yuen Wah to act in my film. What character is right for Yuen Wah?” I wanted to find a character that, when Yuen Wah plays him, everyone will like it. I watched him some more, his face, his image, then I built this character. No emotion, just cold and ugly, then, at the end, fighting very good.
Bey Logan: It seems to me that your productions over the past few years have varied from obviously commercial ventures like the ’Lucky Stars’ series to more personal visions, like the recent ’Pedicab Driver’. Do you draw the same distinctions in your work?
Samo Hung: Definitely. The ’Lucky Stars’ films I make just for fun. I don’t follow any artistic line with those films. However, with ’Pedicab Driver’, I’m making a serious film. With ’Lucky Stars’, I made the audience laugh. With ’Pedicab’ maybe sometimes they feel moved to tears.
Bey Logan: Until quite recently, you worked for Raymond Chow at Golden Harvest, but now you run your own company, BoJon. I’m sure a lot of people wondered why you left Harvest.
Samo Hung: I had been at Golden Harvest for more then eighteen years. Then, I feel I have to leave to do things by myself. So, I tell Raymond Chow and Leonard Hot hat I have to leave because I’m not happy there now. The truth of the matter is this – I made two films at Golden Harvest which I owned myself, but which Golden Harvest distribute for me. We decide to show one of the films for two weeks in the cinema. The film is ’In the Blood’, starring Lau Tak Wah, the director is Yuen Kuei. Then, after one week, it is pulled out. I told them, „You want to pull it out after one week, okay, but you should tell me first!” If the business is not good, they can tell me and say, „Samo, we want to take it out”. But just to do it… The night before, they tell me they want to take the film out the next day. What can I do? Nothing. I said to Raymond Chow, „I’ve worked for you for eighteen years and I’ve fought for you all these years! All I ask is that you tell me earlier!” It wasn’t fair, because I had no time to plan how to save the film. To outsiders, it may seem like Samo is the top man at Golden Harvest, but in myself, I know I am treated just like a dog. If Golden Harvest said, „Samo, fight”, then I fight for them, for more than eighteen years already. How, then, can they treat me like that?
Bey Logan: Having left Golden Harvest, though your company, BoJon seems to be going from strength to strength. One aspect of all your films that is criticised is your treatment of women. They seem to get a pretty rough deal in them. In ’Spooky Encounters’, you beat your screen wife to death, and at the end of ’Eastern Condors’ Joyce Godenzie’s hand is cut off. Critics might say that you don’t like women…
Samo Hung (laughing): No, I like women very much! Seriously, ’Eastern Condors’ was a war movie, like ’Rambo’ and in it the three Vietnamese guerilla women are at war, so, of course, they will kill other people and they may be injured or die themselves. In that situation, it would be unrealistic if all the men died and the women didn’t! Actually, people did say, when I cut Godenzi’s hand off, that it was too much. Generally, I treat women in films as equal to men, and when the men have a hard time, the women do too!
Bey Logan: Good answer. Last year, there was talk in the American press of your making a film in America. This would have been executive produced by Ed Pressman, produced by S. C. Dacy and would have starred Joyce Godenzi and Sybil Danning. I know you flew to L.A. for talks with Pressman and Dacy. Now it’s been announced that the same film ’High Calibre’ is to be made starring Yukari Oshima and directed by Frankie Chan. I’m sure a lot of people wonder why you’re no longer involved with the film?
Samo Hung: Firstly, I didn’t like the script. I can’t catch the point of the story. As director, I have to grasp everything. With this film, I can’t, so I can’t make this film. A lot of people in Hong Kong say to me, „You must make this or that movie”, and I say, „okay, let me think about it” and if I can catch the point, I’ll do it, and if not, I won’t. If I don’t understand the characters, the point of the story, the way to shoot it, then how can I make this film? The example I would use is that each movie project is like a four hundred foot well that you’re asking me to jump into. If there’s no way out, no ladders or hand-holds, then, if I jump in, I’m never going to get out! I realise that ’High Calibre’ was a good chance for me, but I didn’t feel it, so I can’t make it.
Bey Logan: You’re such a good director, though surely having seen your work there are producers in the West who would like to work with you?
Samo Hung: Yes, I plan to make a film in America. It’s something I’ve wanted to do for some time and I plan to go into pre-production on it later this year.
Bey Logan: What other projects are you working on now?
Samo Hung: I’m in the middle of filming a movie called ’Pantyhose Hero’ starring myself and Alan Tam. Also, my company is making the second action film to star Joyce Godenzi, after ’She Shoots Straight’, which was made for Golden Harvest. Beyond that, I have various ideas, but nothing definite.
Bey Logan: I could go on asking you questions for another week or so, but I know you’re dying to get back into the editing suite. One last thing: of all your films which is your favourite and which your least favourite.
Samo Hung: I think the one I like the best is ’Prodigal Son’. I have no least favourite. There’s something I like in all of them.
Bey Logan: Finally, do you have any message for all your fans in England?
Samo Hung: Yes. I want to thank all of you for supporting me and watching my films. I hope I can continue to make movies that you will enjoy. I wish each and every one of you health and good luck in everything you do. Most of all, I hope that there will be peace in the world.
Bey Logan: Samo, you’re my hero, and it’s been a real honour to have this talk with you.
Samo Hung: You’re welcome. Really, you’re welcome…